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no

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that's from the netflix series stranger

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things and that's

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l of course a young girl who was raised

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from birth in an

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mk ultra lab in order to develop her

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psychokinetic powers where she can move

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things across

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room crush coke cans while they have

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electrodes attached to her brain to

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measure what's going on

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and uh you know of course a lot of that

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stuff is true

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and we have today with us

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gas our own l a woman who has been

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laboratory tested

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to do pk stuff sherrily is such an

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interesting person such a great person

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known her for a long time through the

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show made a lot of great contributions

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to the to the skeptical forum over the

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years

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and it was really cool to talk to her

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about all her experiences including

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multiple near-death experiences but in

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particular

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this laboratory work doing pk

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here's a couple clips in terms of

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how skillfully i could do the pk was

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completely dependent on

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practice so the more i did it the faster

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i could get the pin meal to work and

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and the more control i had over the

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pinwheel but whether or not that

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pinwheel would move

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had almost everything to do with my

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with my uh state of mind that day

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and it actually to get the experiment to

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work i had to be in a good mood

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it wasn't a negative mood whereas if i

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was a negative mood i would try and get

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that pinwheel to move and something

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you know i think these are all very

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personal journeys and maybe

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maybe the scientist doesn't need to see

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see the pk and maybe some do and

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i think you see it if you need to see it

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um i think it's just

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there's a lot more to us than we

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realized

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science

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and spirituality with leading

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researchers thinkers

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and their critics i'm your host alex

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sacaris and today we welcome shirley

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black to skeptico

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shirley has a fascinating story she's

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had multiple near-death experiences

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too when she was quite young and

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perhaps because of the after effects of

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those experiences

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or perhaps just because

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it's the way her life was meant to be

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she then experienced

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kind of a series of strange things

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throughout her life

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including precognitive dreams

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poltergeist encounters

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and one thing that we are going to

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explore pretty extensively on this

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interview

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shirley experienced and developed the

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ability to kind of

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enter into this world of psychokinesis

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pk

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the look mom no hands i can move

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stuff with just my mind kind of thing

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and there's been uh there's always been

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an

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interest in this there's been a renewed

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interest in

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in this i think especially like the the

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netflix series stranger things kind of

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tuned

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people into that and there's also been

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numerous

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youtube videos you can find of course

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the problem with all that is pk is about

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the easiest dang

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thing to fake in a video than you

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that you could imagine right i mean you

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can kind of put anything down there and

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say look i'm moving it with my mind and

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you can make a fake video

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but the cool thing about shirley is she

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is someone

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who's actually allowed herself to be

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studied

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in some very very respectable

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top top parapsychology labs

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and she's come back from those

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experiences saying yeah they

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verified that this is real

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and i'm experiencing this because we

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don't really know i

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i hesitate with all the words here i

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hesitate to say i'm making this happen

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or anything because we just that's part

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of what we need to kind of pull apart

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shirley is also uh she's such a super

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cool friend of this show has been

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with me on this journey for a long time

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was

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really active in the forum for a while

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and not so much which is totally cool i

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totally

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think that's great people come people go

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it's just kind of like a

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moving party and that's the way it's

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supposed to be but it's really cool to

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connect

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with you here on this interview and uh

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it's great having you here thank you oh

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thanks for

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so to i kind of sketched some stuff out

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here but tell us

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more about about your

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your whole any part of that that you

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want to fill in

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from the nde to the pk to the

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poltergeist

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anything in between oh gee i mean

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there's a lot there

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you know i i think for anyone who wants

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to see the nde stuff

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there's a video that that um ions

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published that kind of has

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the three ndes there because it takes a

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long time to go through them all

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um you know one thing i find interesting

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you might want to talk about is

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an nde as a very young child i think

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you're like two years old or something i

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mean

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how does that that's different than what

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we normally hear how does that

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what is that experience like number one

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is it different

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when you're a young child like that in

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terms of what you experience in the in

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that extended realm

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and then how does that affect you

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you know what's your mission like

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differently when you come back

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i think when when you're that young

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first off you don't have anything

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tell you that this is weird like you

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know like

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it's just it's just okay this happened

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it you know there's

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there's nothing in your experience that

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tells you that maybe i should hide this

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or maybe there's something wrong with

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this

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it's just kind of part of who you are

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and

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when you talk about weird stuff when

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you're little everyone thinks it's cute

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you know it's just isn't she cute little

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girl and she's very

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you know she has this great imagination

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and

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really little um

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everybody thinks it's great um

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and i think that experience for me you

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know you know when i went through it

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i think the thing that that kind of is

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different about the really young

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experience from when i was older

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is that i was much more aware that there

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was like little me

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like little two-year-old

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two-and-a-half-year-old me

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and then there's this really bigger me

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that seemed to just know

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so much stuff that i didn't you know

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like that

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had this much bigger perspective and

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somehow i

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i was able to kind of live within having

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those two

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you know young me and whatever that

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other me was that seemed to know

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way more stuff um

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and it you know it didn't really seem to

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me like it wasn't supposed to be that

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way it was just like yeah that's just

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how things are

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yeah that's really cool that's a very

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interesting

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insight and then what about the the one

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when you were

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when you're older in your late 20s so is

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there is there like a continuity is

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there a connection is there like okay

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are we our next chapter or is it like

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oops here i am again

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accidentally kind of thing um

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i i think well you know i had

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a really scary one when i was was 10.

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like you know you're an absolute

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distressing nde

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and i think it was almost like when i

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had the nde when i was 29

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it was almost like to make that one the

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bad one better

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you know it was like it was kind of to

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explain that

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yeah you had that bad one but in some

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ways

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the bad one was kind of a course

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correction because like i had this

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really wonderful one when i was really

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young

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and i think that that one might have if

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i just kind of kept following the path

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it set me on

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i might not have ever had a normal life

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and i think the bad one kind of brought

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me back more into this world somehow

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and and then i had a very normal life in

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my 20s and i got married i had a job and

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you know did university and all that

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stuff

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and then at 29 i kind of got pushed more

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into the spiritual side of things again

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and and and i think it was that was the

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time for me to do that

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and then when does the other stuff

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kind of start factoring in and and

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i'm not sure i fully understand how you

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understand

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the other stuff so you know i i don't

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want to flavor it too much you know so

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just tell us what you think

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happens after that and in particular how

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it connects to

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the to the nde if it does connect i

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don't want to make any assumptions

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um well first off i will say i reserve

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the right to change

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my mind on any of this because i think

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throughout my life i'm just constantly

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reevaluating

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how i see it and i i just even though

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when you're kind of

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in that nd state and it seems like you

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just know

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everything um you come back here and

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you don't you know you maybe you did

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but you're back and you you kind of got

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a sense of what it was like to know

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everything and to kind of have

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everything settled but you're here and

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you don't

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and you still have to kind of work it

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out

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and and you're constantly re-figuring

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out how it goes

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so can we pause right there because i

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mean i think

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like i don't i've never had an nde you

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know like i tell people on the show i

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don't even know anyone

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personally in my family like my kids

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have never had to not father you know

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i don't know anyone like that but in to

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a certain extent i love

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studying it like i have kind of from a

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distance because what you're saying i

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just want to make that point over and

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over again

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and so many people have had an nde are

285
00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:41,360
so insistent

286
00:10:44,710 --> 00:10:43,120
that they have some privileged

287
00:10:46,630 --> 00:10:44,720
perspective on this thing

288
00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:46,640
and i'm like well maybe you do maybe you

289
00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:48,000
don't but i'm just following the data

290
00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:49,600
and i'm telling you the data does not

291
00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:50,720
support what you're saying

292
00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:52,480
i just interviewed someone a couple days

293
00:10:56,470 --> 00:10:54,720
ago lovely person trisha barker

294
00:10:58,150 --> 00:10:56,480
she runs the nde summit and she's

295
00:11:01,509 --> 00:10:58,160
interviewed all these indie ears

296
00:11:03,190 --> 00:11:01,519
and she's had an experience herself a

297
00:11:04,630 --> 00:11:03,200
very profound experience undoubtable

298
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:04,640
experience in terms of

299
00:11:08,069 --> 00:11:06,000
she was flatlined she was in the

300
00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:08,079
hospital and all that but one of the

301
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:09,760
things we talked about

302
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:12,240
is the the kind of difference in me just

303
00:11:15,269 --> 00:11:13,600
stumbling into this inquiry to

304
00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:15,279
perpetuate doubt doubt is the most

305
00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:16,240
spiritual thing

306
00:11:22,710 --> 00:11:19,600
and the thing you know from indies

307
00:11:25,750 --> 00:11:22,720
is exactly what you said that there

308
00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:25,760
is this sense of all knowing and that

309
00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:26,720
what that but

310
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:28,720
that goes away when you come back here

311
00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:30,079
and when you come back here we're all on

312
00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:31,760
the level playing ground of figuring

313
00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:33,440
this stuff out and constantly making

314
00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:34,800
mistakes and constantly course

315
00:11:38,389 --> 00:11:35,600
correcting

316
00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:38,399
and if you think otherwise then go sign

317
00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:40,320
yourself up for the latest cult the

318
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:41,519
latest guru

319
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:43,760
who will give you that certainty that

320
00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:45,760
you want because otherwise

321
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:47,680
it does kind of peeve me when i hear

322
00:11:57,350 --> 00:11:55,110
this position of authority that just is

323
00:11:58,550 --> 00:11:57,360
not consistent with the logic of what

324
00:12:01,509 --> 00:11:58,560
they're saying so

325
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:01,519
and i think that also factors into and i

326
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:03,440
want to turn the mic back over to you

327
00:12:10,069 --> 00:12:06,880
but i have a sense that you have been so

328
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:10,079
involved in the parapsychology community

329
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:13,519
and the scientific community and in oh

330
00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:14,720
there's because there's this other thing

331
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:16,880
going on i think where

332
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:18,480
there's this strange kind of

333
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:20,000
relationship between that research

334
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:22,160
community and experiencers

335
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:24,160
where they in some respects they don't

336
00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:26,000
give experiences they're due because

337
00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:27,600
experiences are the ones who've really

338
00:12:31,509 --> 00:12:28,160
been there

339
00:12:33,269 --> 00:12:31,519
and doing it but there is also this nice

340
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:33,279
interchange when your experiencer says

341
00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:34,160
you know what

342
00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:36,800
i really want to participate with you

343
00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:40,720
and kind of understanding it from this

344
00:12:44,710 --> 00:12:43,120
rational scientific if you will kind of

345
00:12:45,509 --> 00:12:44,720
way and that's something that you've

346
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:45,519
sought out

347
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:48,320
so again i kind of totally stole the mic

348
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:49,440
there so i'm going to give it back to

349
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:51,680
you you can respond to any of that stuff

350
00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:52,240
negative

351
00:12:57,670 --> 00:12:55,600
part of it that that

352
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:57,680
people kind of hold the end to ears up

353
00:13:02,629 --> 00:12:59,519
on these pedestals

354
00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:02,639
and they're encouraged to have a

355
00:13:06,150 --> 00:13:04,720
particular narrative and go along with

356
00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:06,160
that narrative

357
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:09,200
and if you do it can be a

358
00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:13,839
great way to sell books um

359
00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:15,440
you know when you're the attention just

360
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:17,360
get that positive nut and then just get

361
00:13:21,829 --> 00:13:18,720
positive attention you know

362
00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:21,839
yeah and you know like

363
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:24,240
and if you say like you don't see a lot

364
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:26,320
of near-death experiencers talking about

365
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:28,160
negative near-death experiences at

366
00:13:34,629 --> 00:13:29,519
conferences

367
00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:34,639
nobody shows up for those lectures

368
00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:36,560
i mean that's not that's not what

369
00:13:42,550 --> 00:13:38,240
they're there for

370
00:13:45,189 --> 00:13:42,560
and so there's almost kind of

371
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:45,199
kind of this double standard that if you

372
00:13:49,269 --> 00:13:47,279
have the right kind of experiences

373
00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:49,279
you'll get a lot of attention a lot of

374
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:50,560
feedback and

375
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:52,480
people will pay attention to you and

376
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:53,600
they'll kind of

377
00:13:57,430 --> 00:13:55,680
bolster everything you say like it's

378
00:14:00,870 --> 00:13:57,440
just the most wonderful thing

379
00:14:01,590 --> 00:14:00,880
but if you talk about any of the bad

380
00:14:03,030 --> 00:14:01,600
parts

381
00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:03,040
even just about some people have

382
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:06,000
wonderful ndes and then

383
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:08,000
come back from it and their marriages

384
00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:09,360
fall apart because they're different

385
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:10,560
people

386
00:14:15,430 --> 00:14:13,680
and like you don't although that's

387
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:15,440
mentioned in the literature

388
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:18,880
people don't really talk about that much

389
00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:20,560
you know and i can think of a number of

390
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:22,480
very famous nd years whose marriages

391
00:14:27,990 --> 00:14:23,120
have

392
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:28,000
right after their ndes

393
00:14:32,629 --> 00:14:31,120
evan alexander

394
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:32,639
yeah nobody likes to look at that

395
00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:34,399
because he's going on and done all this

396
00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:36,240
great things with his wife and

397
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,920
his his second wife would i don't have

398
00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:39,120
any i don't know any problem with that

399
00:14:41,430 --> 00:14:40,399
but you know the other part of that

400
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,440
because some people do

401
00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:43,680
you know pmh water deserves a lot of

402
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:44,959
credit because she is like one of the

403
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:46,800
first ones say

404
00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:49,760
after effects integration problems

405
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:50,560
they're all

406
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:52,240
here and then the people are really

407
00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:54,320
tuned into kind of

408
00:14:57,910 --> 00:14:56,160
spiritually transformative experiences

409
00:14:59,750 --> 00:14:57,920
say wow that's been reported for the

410
00:15:00,550 --> 00:14:59,760
longest time somebody has a kundalini

411
00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:00,560
experience in

412
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:03,360
india comes out of the blue the same

413
00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:04,639
thing they have this kind of crazy

414
00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:05,920
period they go to they

415
00:15:09,189 --> 00:15:07,680
ruin all these relationships and then

416
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:09,199
they can do it you know the

417
00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:11,360
the so that's one aspect of it i'm glad

418
00:15:16,069 --> 00:15:13,760
you bring it up you know came up with my

419
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:16,079
in my interview with trisha that that i

420
00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:17,760
guess you sparked it with the other

421
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:19,519
thing you said about just your life

422
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:22,399
kind of going on and not being perfect

423
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:23,600
oh my god

424
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:25,120
trisha barker comes back from her

425
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:26,880
near-death experience and she's marching

426
00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:27,199
on

427
00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:30,880
that she's been told to do and a healer

428
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:31,600
and a teacher

429
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:34,000
she goes to south korea and is raped you

430
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:34,720
know and

431
00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:37,920
it's traumatized extremely traumatized

432
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:40,959
so where does that fit in you know we

433
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:42,320
don't talk about that like

434
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:44,399
your life is somehow you're going to

435
00:15:47,509 --> 00:15:46,399
come back from your nde and your life is

436
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:47,519
somehow going to be

437
00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:50,320
plotted out to be quote unquote perfect

438
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:52,160
again

439
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:54,240
that's can be someone's that can be

440
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:55,680
someone's opinion

441
00:16:00,230 --> 00:15:58,079
my reading of the data is not consistent

442
00:16:03,269 --> 00:16:00,240
with that view

443
00:16:06,389 --> 00:16:03,279
oh no i mean my life right out i

444
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:06,399
i would say with my third nde the car

445
00:16:09,269 --> 00:16:07,440
accident

446
00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:09,279
right before it i would have said my

447
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:10,880
life was perfect

448
00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:13,040
right before that car accident every i

449
00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:15,120
had a job i loved

450
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:18,399
i mean i was working as a musician um

451
00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:21,279
and i was working as a landscape painter

452
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:22,000
and it was a

453
00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:25,920
really wonderful i had a great marriage

454
00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:29,120
i i was so happy you have no idea it was

455
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:30,639
just a wonderful life

456
00:16:34,949 --> 00:16:33,519
and then i had that accident and then my

457
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:34,959
husband

458
00:16:38,470 --> 00:16:37,440
didn't recognize me i tried so hard to

459
00:16:40,389 --> 00:16:38,480
pretend

460
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:40,399
that i was who i was before and i

461
00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:41,920
couldn't do it like i

462
00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:44,560
i really worked at it and i just

463
00:16:49,670 --> 00:16:46,160
couldn't do it

464
00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:49,680
and so yeah i went you know through

465
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:51,440
well i was lucky that it ended with

466
00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:53,120
divorce because it almost ended with

467
00:16:58,230 --> 00:16:54,320
death

468
00:17:01,509 --> 00:16:58,240
um and you know it was

469
00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:01,519
a really traumatic um

470
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:04,880
experience afterwards and yet it it was

471
00:17:10,949 --> 00:17:07,520
so weird because part of me was just

472
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:10,959
so happy for that nde i mean it it was

473
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:14,079
an amazing wonderful thing

474
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:17,520
um but the cost of it was pretty high

475
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:21,760
uh why do you think that was i mean tell

476
00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:23,039
us some of the

477
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:25,760
some of the reasons that that came about

478
00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:27,760
why it was especially hard to

479
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:30,240
uh to integrate all that back into your

480
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:31,520
life

481
00:17:37,909 --> 00:17:34,640
well you know it

482
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:37,919
well mostly it was it was

483
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:40,080
i was trying really hard to be who i was

484
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:41,760
before the nde and i couldn't

485
00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:43,360
i mean i couldn't on a lot of levels i

486
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:45,120
didn't look the same i mean i still

487
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:46,720
don't look the same but i mean i'm older

488
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:47,600
now so

489
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:50,880
that's forgivable but you know i my face

490
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:52,960
was all cut up in the car accident i had

491
00:17:56,789 --> 00:17:54,880
to learn how to walk again

492
00:17:58,710 --> 00:17:56,799
i mean i had been an athletic woman i

493
00:18:01,909 --> 00:17:58,720
mean i was in the military

494
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:01,919
you know i played the military band um

495
00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:04,160
and so you know i'd go out and train and

496
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:05,120
do those

497
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:07,280
annoying five mile runs that i hated but

498
00:18:09,830 --> 00:18:08,240
i did them

499
00:18:11,830 --> 00:18:09,840
you know and then suddenly i couldn't

500
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:11,840
walk and

501
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:14,240
i was a very attractive woman i mean as

502
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,679
a professional musician

503
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:17,840
i used to do a lot of pr work in the

504
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:19,679
military because

505
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:22,000
um you know i was young and cute and

506
00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:24,240
pretty and suddenly my face was

507
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:27,280
totally ripped up by glass

508
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:30,640
and like you know you know you never get

509
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:31,840
that back you certainly

510
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:33,760
certainly wasn't going to be on

511
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:36,799
recruitment posters after that

512
00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:40,720
uh and so

513
00:18:44,310 --> 00:18:42,640
you know like i was very very different

514
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:44,320
and then things that i'd always

515
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:47,120
found were enough like i always knew i

516
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:49,360
was an artist and musician like i just

517
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:52,559
that's who i was and suddenly

518
00:18:56,710 --> 00:18:55,679
i was interested in math like really

519
00:18:59,110 --> 00:18:56,720
interested like

520
00:19:00,390 --> 00:18:59,120
i was getting excited about algorithms

521
00:19:03,669 --> 00:19:00,400
you know which is like

522
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:03,679
completely sick he does that

523
00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:07,360
and you know and and i was

524
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:09,360
kind of talking to you know i still when

525
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:10,880
i was still married to my first husband

526
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:11,280
i was

527
00:19:15,909 --> 00:19:14,320
kind of talking about well i kind of

528
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:15,919
would like to go back to university and

529
00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:17,440
study science

530
00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:20,960
and i mean the look on his face

531
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:23,200
it was like you're not you you are

532
00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:24,000
absolutely not

533
00:19:29,430 --> 00:19:27,600
you and he has to deal with the physical

534
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:29,440
part he has to deal with the lifestyle

535
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:30,720
change in terms of being

536
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,960
active and this and that yeah and that

537
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:34,480
physical part i mean

538
00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:36,720
we all want to pretend like we can just

539
00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:39,120
kind of you know brush that aside or be

540
00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:42,480
able to do that but it's so integrated

541
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:45,200
into into marriage yeah and

542
00:19:48,950 --> 00:19:46,320
relationships

543
00:19:50,870 --> 00:19:48,960
oh my gosh culture culture because it's

544
00:19:52,630 --> 00:19:50,880
not only that it's like

545
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:52,640
when i walk down the street next to you

546
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:54,720
shirley you know i used to get this

547
00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:58,240
feedback from everyone else and now i

548
00:20:02,070 --> 00:19:58,960
get different

549
00:20:04,070 --> 00:20:02,080
feedback and i can't you know i mean

550
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:04,080
it should shouldn't be that way but it

551
00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:05,760
is you know

552
00:20:12,230 --> 00:20:08,799
yep yeah no

553
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:12,240
yeah so you know so it was a big deal

554
00:20:15,909 --> 00:20:15,200
and and he kept telling everybody that i

555
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:15,919
wasn't me

556
00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:18,799
and everybody was telling him you are so

557
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:20,960
lucky your wife was supposed like

558
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:23,679
he was at it was such a bad accident he

559
00:20:27,590 --> 00:20:24,159
was

560
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:27,600
coming to identify the body um

561
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:31,039
you know and so like because the rcmp

562
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:32,320
couldn't tell him if

563
00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:34,480
if i was gonna be alive when he got to

564
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:36,080
the hospital

565
00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:38,000
so all these people are telling him

566
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:39,200
you're so lucky

567
00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:41,840
she's still here she survived it you

568
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:43,280
know isn't that great

569
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:45,679
and in the meantime he's thinking i

570
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:47,440
don't know what that is but she killed

571
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:49,440
my wife

572
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:53,120
you know i mean that's that's

573
00:20:58,310 --> 00:20:56,400
how bad it was so so yeah

574
00:21:00,630 --> 00:20:58,320
it was kind of like part of me really

575
00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:00,640
wanted to explore these new

576
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:03,760
interests like in math and science

577
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:06,720
and it wasn't that i could you know i

578
00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:09,120
could still play music i mean i was very

579
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:10,960
very fortunate because there was a lot

580
00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:12,720
of things i couldn't do when i came back

581
00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:13,360
and yet

582
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:15,440
i still could play music like i had

583
00:21:19,029 --> 00:21:16,400
broken fingers

584
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:19,039
and i i was still going to band practice

585
00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:20,400
they were

586
00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:23,280
propping you know the drums up on on a

587
00:21:26,789 --> 00:21:24,640
chair for me so i

588
00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:26,799
because i couldn't you know wear a

589
00:21:31,270 --> 00:21:28,640
highland pipe band drum

590
00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:31,280
when i was on crutches and i was still

591
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:31,840
playing

592
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,120
i mean i healed so quickly i think the

593
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:37,200
accident was in january

594
00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:41,360
and and i think the cast came off a few

595
00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:42,320
months later but

596
00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:45,919
that summer i was on parade mart like

597
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:49,679
marching in parades playing grounds um

598
00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:52,799
like it was it was a almost a freakish

599
00:21:57,190 --> 00:21:54,320
recovery how quickly

600
00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:57,200
i came back what was the main what were

601
00:22:02,390 --> 00:21:59,120
the main um

602
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:02,400
you know lessons if you will uh

603
00:22:09,430 --> 00:22:05,840
course changes mission changes

604
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:09,440
advice from that third nde

605
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:11,600
that kind of propelled you forward or

606
00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:13,280
were there were there those kind of

607
00:22:16,789 --> 00:22:14,400
things

608
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:16,799
i was you know i think i was much more

609
00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:18,159
interested

610
00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:21,200
in being like a whole person like you

611
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:23,200
know like the art was good but it wasn't

612
00:22:28,310 --> 00:22:25,360
enough it wasn't everything

613
00:22:30,070 --> 00:22:28,320
i just wanted to know so much stuff like

614
00:22:32,070 --> 00:22:30,080
you know and that was kind of just

615
00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:32,080
pre-internet internet was just kind of

616
00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:33,600
coming in but we were in isolated

617
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:35,760
community we didn't even have cable tv

618
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:38,640
you know so so internet wasn't something

619
00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:40,000
i had access to

620
00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:43,840
at that point but but it was just i

621
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:45,360
wanted to know everything i wanted to

622
00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:46,880
know about math i wanted to know about

623
00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:48,559
science

624
00:22:53,909 --> 00:22:52,480
i just wanted to know stuff um

625
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:53,919
i mean you know there's the light and

626
00:22:56,789 --> 00:22:55,360
love stuff that you know everyone talks

627
00:22:59,190 --> 00:22:56,799
about the light and love

628
00:23:00,630 --> 00:22:59,200
but there was also i was just so

629
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:00,640
interested in knowledge

630
00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:03,840
like it was

631
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:07,039
it it was like i was just craving it

632
00:23:10,470 --> 00:23:09,120
to know about everything around me and

633
00:23:12,630 --> 00:23:10,480
how it all worked

634
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:12,640
well that's cool i mean i love that you

635
00:23:15,830 --> 00:23:13,840
say that you know because yeah we all

636
00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:15,840
want to go to what's the big spiritual

637
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:16,880
message

638
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:19,120
and you're saying you experienced that

639
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:21,039
experientially but what it really pushed

640
00:23:24,950 --> 00:23:22,960
you towards is kind of

641
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:24,960
this knowledge thing do you think that

642
00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:26,320
factored into the pk

643
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:29,600
stuff i think the pk stuff

644
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:33,360
had more to do with just

645
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:35,520
trying to hide things and i i think it

646
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:36,640
was how thing i

647
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:38,080
think it was how a lot of my emotions

648
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:40,320
were coming out because i was

649
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:42,400
suppressing everything because i was

650
00:23:46,149 --> 00:23:44,080
you know i didn't want my parents to

651
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:46,159
think i wasn't their kid anymore

652
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:48,080
i you know i didn't want my friends to

653
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:49,440
think i wasn't me

654
00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:52,720
and you know my my marriage

655
00:23:57,909 --> 00:23:55,840
ended so badly and that was actually the

656
00:23:58,630 --> 00:23:57,919
first time that the pk really started

657
00:24:01,909 --> 00:23:58,640
erupting

658
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:01,919
was you know when things were really

659
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:05,039
going south tell us a little bit about

660
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:05,840
that

661
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:09,360
yeah

662
00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:12,000
um i don't like to say too much about my

663
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:14,159
my first husband passed away and

664
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:17,440
and i think a lot of the issues that he

665
00:24:22,789 --> 00:24:19,200
was suffering with

666
00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:22,799
um you know he had i'm sure he had ptsd

667
00:24:25,909 --> 00:24:25,039
from his time in the military he had

668
00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:25,919
some really

669
00:24:30,149 --> 00:24:28,720
horrid experiences plus i just recently

670
00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:30,159
found out that they were giving

671
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:33,760
them drugs when he was overseas

672
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:35,520
i believe it was for malaria but

673
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,679
apparently it also causes psychotic

674
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:39,360
episodes that persist

675
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:44,080
throughout later years in your life um

676
00:24:47,830 --> 00:24:46,720
so there was stuff going on with him

677
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:47,840
that

678
00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:50,159
this you know he had a bad childhood

679
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:51,440
upbringing he went to the military to

680
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:53,520
get away from a bad family

681
00:24:59,750 --> 00:24:57,600
and which a lot of people do um and

682
00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:59,760
with everything going on i think he felt

683
00:25:02,789 --> 00:25:00,880
that he

684
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:02,799
couldn't protect his wife and somehow i

685
00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:04,320
took away his wife and

686
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:08,720
he came close to killing me one night

687
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:13,120
and what happened was

688
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:15,120
when he had his hands on me everything

689
00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:17,039
started coming live in our house

690
00:25:21,190 --> 00:25:18,960
like the kitchen doors started opening

691
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:21,200
and closing the tv and radio

692
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:23,679
started blaring lights were flickering

693
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:25,120
on and off

694
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:28,240
and i mean it was

695
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:30,240
it was just everything came alive and he

696
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:31,760
just ran out of the house

697
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:34,640
and never came back and i crawled under

698
00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:36,799
the kitchen table and waited for it to

699
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:40,400
to calm down with the cat you know

700
00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:43,919
um and that was like you know the first

701
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:44,240
big

702
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:47,039
decay and it was just and it probably

703
00:25:52,710 --> 00:25:49,840
saved my life

704
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:52,720
and uh and i think that so as you

705
00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:54,640
process that now and as you think about

706
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:55,520
it

707
00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:58,320
um you know that's really kind of one of

708
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:58,640
the

709
00:26:02,710 --> 00:26:00,720
interesting things you know putting you

710
00:26:05,909 --> 00:26:02,720
into the microscope now so we can

711
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:05,919
pull apart your most the most dramatic

712
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:08,159
moment of your life let's analyze it and

713
00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:10,000
talk about it but

714
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:13,120
you know it it is it is something to

715
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:15,120
think about and i'm sure you have

716
00:26:21,269 --> 00:26:18,240
you know this extended realm pk

717
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:21,279
poltergeist spirit guide

718
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:25,679
i mean angels demons i mean

719
00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:30,080
what do you think happens when we

720
00:26:33,750 --> 00:26:32,480
encounter that extended realm and then

721
00:26:35,669 --> 00:26:33,760
you know if we're going to pull out this

722
00:26:39,830 --> 00:26:35,679
little slice we're going to call pk

723
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:39,840
how does that fit into it

724
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:42,000
you know it's hard to say it you know

725
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:44,159
i'm i'm not quite sure

726
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:47,039
how to approach that because because i

727
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:49,200
think that you know pk

728
00:26:52,789 --> 00:26:50,880
and i and i you know like i knew bill

729
00:26:54,149 --> 00:26:52,799
rohl like william roll who sort of

730
00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:54,159
coined the phrase

731
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:57,440
rspk um i knew bill um

732
00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:00,080
and you know he tied everything to

733
00:27:04,630 --> 00:27:02,960
emotion and i know the very first time

734
00:27:05,990 --> 00:27:04,640
i talked to him on the phone and he

735
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:06,000
wanted to see if i was the real

736
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:09,840
deal and he asked me a question i can't

737
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:11,840
i can't exactly remember what it was i

738
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:14,080
just know he asked me something that

739
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:16,080
absolutely horrified me and seemed like

740
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:17,600
the most

741
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:20,159
insensitive and awful thing to ask

742
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:20,880
somebody

743
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:22,640
and as soon as he did that the phone

744
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:24,720
line started screeching

745
00:27:28,470 --> 00:27:26,480
like you know over the phone line there

746
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:28,480
was this awful static and

747
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:30,960
and this horrible it sounded like an air

748
00:27:35,110 --> 00:27:33,200
raid siren or something going off

749
00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:35,120
and then he just changed the tactic is

750
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:36,799
like okay we'll

751
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,480
talk about something else now and i was

752
00:27:41,909 --> 00:27:40,240
like wait wait wait you can't just ask

753
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:41,919
me something like that and then change

754
00:27:44,789 --> 00:27:42,720
the subject

755
00:27:46,230 --> 00:27:44,799
it's like no no no it's fine it's fine

756
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:46,240
would you like to come to

757
00:27:50,789 --> 00:27:48,080
sudbury and do some research at

758
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:50,799
persinger's lab

759
00:27:54,389 --> 00:27:52,720
and so i mean clearly he had asked me

760
00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:54,399
something like that

761
00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:56,640
to see if it would set me off i mean it

762
00:27:59,830 --> 00:27:58,240
wasn't that he really expected me to

763
00:28:01,909 --> 00:27:59,840
answer that question

764
00:28:03,029 --> 00:28:01,919
and apparently like he told me later

765
00:28:06,070 --> 00:28:03,039
that tina reich

766
00:28:07,909 --> 00:28:06,080
who he'd worked with um

767
00:28:09,669 --> 00:28:07,919
she used to have that effect if he upset

768
00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:09,679
her on the phone that they would get

769
00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:12,480
it was like the same noise well this is

770
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:14,480
this is back to like the stranger things

771
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:15,200
kind of thing

772
00:28:19,669 --> 00:28:17,039
you know the netflix stranger things

773
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:19,679
show and you know those things

774
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:22,880
are based on

775
00:28:26,549 --> 00:28:25,120
i don't want to say based on they're

776
00:28:28,870 --> 00:28:26,559
stretching reality they're

777
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:28,880
trusting stretching truth but we've

778
00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:30,399
heard these stories repeated

779
00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:31,679
and you know that's why i guess i

780
00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:33,360
brought up the poltergeist thing because

781
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:34,000
a lot of

782
00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:39,039
poltergeist researchers

783
00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:41,679
have connected it had said there's a

784
00:28:49,029 --> 00:28:44,080
strong correlation between

785
00:28:53,029 --> 00:28:49,039
uh girls in the ages of kind of 10 to 13

786
00:28:56,830 --> 00:28:53,039
uh who are kind of in a heightened sense

787
00:29:02,149 --> 00:29:00,070
processing and the appearance and

788
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:02,159
interaction with poltergeist and they're

789
00:29:06,070 --> 00:29:03,440
not saying

790
00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:06,080
it's uh imagination going wild what they

791
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:08,799
seem to be suggesting is that there's a

792
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:12,240
a frequency of energy there that

793
00:29:19,190 --> 00:29:15,600
is attractive to or

794
00:29:22,310 --> 00:29:19,200
an entry point for some things that

795
00:29:24,549 --> 00:29:22,320
exist in these extended realms so

796
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:24,559
i mean even if that doesn't connect with

797
00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:26,159
you because you weren't uh a

798
00:29:30,470 --> 00:29:28,880
a young girl in that way i i think there

799
00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:30,480
might be some

800
00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:34,080
connection between that kind of kind of

801
00:29:37,909 --> 00:29:36,640
heightened and changed ego state and

802
00:29:40,230 --> 00:29:37,919
that

803
00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:40,240
frequency connection thing d have you

804
00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:41,919
thought about that at all i mean i

805
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:43,440
kind of think your story suggests that

806
00:29:46,549 --> 00:29:45,520
you have but have you gotten into it any

807
00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:46,559
further

808
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:48,720
oh yeah no and i mean i had poltergeist

809
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:49,760
activity

810
00:29:54,070 --> 00:29:51,760
for a short time when i was young at

811
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:54,080
around that age when you get

812
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:03,430
um you know so yeah and and

813
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:07,679
certainly you know it came up when when

814
00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:09,120
i was going through my divorce from my

815
00:30:12,470 --> 00:30:10,320
first husband

816
00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:12,480
and it came up when i was in graduate

817
00:30:17,269 --> 00:30:14,159
school working on my doctorate

818
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:17,279
and uh which i ended up walking away

819
00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:19,279
from because it just wasn't worth

820
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:22,960
worth it in the end but um

821
00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:24,640
watch i didn't technically walk away

822
00:30:26,789 --> 00:30:26,480
technically i'm still a phd candidate in

823
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:26,799
good

824
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:28,240
standing i just don't have a thesis

825
00:30:33,190 --> 00:30:30,080
supervisor um

826
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:33,200
but uh you know

827
00:30:39,669 --> 00:30:36,640
when i was having some

828
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:39,679
really stressful issues at university

829
00:30:43,430 --> 00:30:41,120
that's when it was starting to

830
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:43,440
happen again and it was happening in the

831
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:44,720
laboratory

832
00:30:51,029 --> 00:30:48,480
and you know um one one nigerian student

833
00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:51,039
called me a witch

834
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:53,039
you know because every time i got upset

835
00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:56,240
things were blowing up in the lab

836
00:31:00,149 --> 00:30:58,080
you know somebody somebody said that

837
00:31:02,549 --> 00:31:00,159
they should send me to walk by this one

838
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:02,559
chemistry chemistry professor's lab that

839
00:31:08,149 --> 00:31:04,080
nobody liked to see if i could

840
00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:08,159
do bad things to his house by walking by

841
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:10,960
you know so yeah it's it's absolutely

842
00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:12,640
connected to emotions

843
00:31:17,590 --> 00:31:16,720
um not always negative emotions i mean i

844
00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:17,600
did actually

845
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:20,640
do some experiments myself where

846
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:26,789
i basically set up a little pinwheel and

847
00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:28,240
i would practice getting it

848
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:31,200
to move inside a jar every day and

849
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:32,000
before i did

850
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:35,840
it i would do a panus which i think is

851
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:39,200
positive and negative effect um

852
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:40,960
something rather it's a it's a standard

853
00:31:45,269 --> 00:31:42,640
psychological test

854
00:31:46,389 --> 00:31:45,279
that you can kind of fill it out and

855
00:31:49,509 --> 00:31:46,399
then

856
00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:49,519
you do some kind of um

857
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:52,080
calculations with it afterwards and

858
00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:53,840
it'll tell you what kind of mood you

859
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:55,440
were in

860
00:32:02,549 --> 00:31:59,279
and it's it's standard and

861
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:02,559
jim carpenter who um he wrote first

862
00:32:05,909 --> 00:32:03,440
sight

863
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:05,919
that used to be the you know president

864
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:07,760
of the parapsychological association he

865
00:32:11,110 --> 00:32:09,440
was the one that recommended it to me

866
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:11,120
when i was first kind of thinking i'd

867
00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:13,279
like to set up some experiments

868
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:15,519
just to see how my emotions are

869
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:16,960
affecting this stuff

870
00:32:21,029 --> 00:32:19,279
and what i found from doing my own

871
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:21,039
experiments and actually jim

872
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:22,960
presented the work we co-authored a

873
00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:25,600
paper and and he presented it at

874
00:32:28,789 --> 00:32:27,519
the parapsychological association

875
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:28,799
conference

876
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:32,720
was um that emotions did factor into

877
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:34,559
whether or not

878
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:38,640
the that the you know the pk would occur

879
00:32:43,990 --> 00:32:41,679
although it actually in terms of

880
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:44,000
how skillfully i could do the pk was

881
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:45,440
completely dependent on

882
00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:47,919
practice so the more i did it the faster

883
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:49,919
i could get the pin meal to work and

884
00:32:53,190 --> 00:32:51,440
and the more control i had over the

885
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:53,200
pinwheel but whether or not that

886
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:54,320
pinwheel would move

887
00:33:02,389 --> 00:32:58,480
had almost everything to do with my

888
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:02,399
with my uh state of mind that day

889
00:33:06,789 --> 00:33:05,279
and it actually to get the experiment to

890
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:06,799
work i had to be in a good mood

891
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:09,360
it wasn't a negative mood whereas if i

892
00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:10,080
was a negative

893
00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:11,760
mood i would try and get that pinwheel

894
00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:13,279
to move and something across the room

895
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:19,750
so it was kind of interesting that way

896
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:22,080
so shirley tell us a little bit about

897
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:23,200
the

898
00:33:29,830 --> 00:33:28,080
that you did because you just kind of

899
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:29,840
touched it but kind of frame it up and

900
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:30,480
then

901
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:31,919
some of the other labs that you're

902
00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:33,760
invented invited to

903
00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:36,880
some of the work that was going on there

904
00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:38,320
i guess i gotta come back to the

905
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:39,919
stranger things you know thing i mean

906
00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:41,600
there's some weird connections with

907
00:33:45,909 --> 00:33:44,640
uh mk ultra stuff either in its kind of

908
00:33:47,669 --> 00:33:45,919
direct form or

909
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:47,679
you know a lot of that mk ultra stuff

910
00:33:51,669 --> 00:33:49,120
was

911
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:51,679
hidden and disguised as oh you know it's

912
00:33:54,789 --> 00:33:54,240
just the researchers interested in this

913
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:54,799
and yet

914
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:56,159
they had some connections because this

915
00:34:02,310 --> 00:33:58,720
is obviously if

916
00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:02,320
if the governments of the free world

917
00:34:06,789 --> 00:34:04,559
like the united states and canada if

918
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:06,799
they weren't interested in this

919
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,720
they'd be asleep at the wheel in a way

920
00:34:11,990 --> 00:34:10,320
that we wouldn't like

921
00:34:13,349 --> 00:34:12,000
the fact that they were interested in is

922
00:34:14,869 --> 00:34:13,359
understandable the fact that they were

923
00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:14,879
trying to weaponize it and didn't care

924
00:34:18,149 --> 00:34:16,480
about destroying people's lives in the

925
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:18,159
process is something we may not be

926
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:19,520
totally comfortable with

927
00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:21,839
but this is in play in a way that anyone

928
00:34:25,669 --> 00:34:23,200
who doesn't understand this is

929
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:25,679
definitely in play is just kind of

930
00:34:31,829 --> 00:34:29,440
not paying attention so fill us in on

931
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:31,839
the how how you got involved with

932
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:33,200
research and to what extent

933
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:34,720
and where it went and where you think it

934
00:34:41,030 --> 00:34:37,040
might have gone that you didn't even

935
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:41,040
see oh lord

936
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:43,200
there's there's a lot there i mean i

937
00:34:48,310 --> 00:34:45,200
think

938
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:48,320
you know originally when i was

939
00:34:52,310 --> 00:34:49,919
i actually you know when i was first

940
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:52,320
very active in the skeptical forum

941
00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:54,079
uh it was because you were one of the

942
00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:56,079
few podcasters who were interviewing

943
00:35:02,230 --> 00:34:58,400
people like dean wright

944
00:35:04,150 --> 00:35:02,240
and uh and i was i was in university at

945
00:35:07,349 --> 00:35:04,160
the time and i was trying

946
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:07,359
to find any kind of literature like

947
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:10,079
scientific literature on this stuff

948
00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:13,200
and i wasn't finding it like

949
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:16,560
you know like you really have to know

950
00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:18,480
where look like i would have not thought

951
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:20,320
to look at um

952
00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:22,720
engineering journals like you know a

953
00:35:26,069 --> 00:35:24,480
triple e

954
00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:26,079
which is where a lot of the rem you know

955
00:35:30,230 --> 00:35:28,160
there's remote viewing stuff in nature

956
00:35:33,910 --> 00:35:30,240
and and

957
00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:33,920
it's ieee i think um yeah ieee

958
00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:37,839
yeah it's ieee sorry and you know which

959
00:35:41,030 --> 00:35:40,000
you know having studied earth sciences

960
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:41,040
and geology like

961
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:42,800
i use that journal all the time i

962
00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:44,240
wouldn't have known to look

963
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:47,520
there for information on remote viewing

964
00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:50,880
um and so i

965
00:35:54,069 --> 00:35:53,359
i was like searching the internet and

966
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:54,079
trying

967
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:56,240
just to find whatever was available i

968
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:58,960
mean i was going to the university and

969
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:01,599
basically i used to give myself every

970
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:03,280
friday afternoon i was going in

971
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:05,760
in the campus university searching for

972
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:06,800
information

973
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:08,560
on this stuff and and i wasn't having a

974
00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:10,880
lot of luck until i found your podcast

975
00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:13,280
and then dean rayden once i found his

976
00:36:15,829 --> 00:36:14,160
stuff

977
00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:15,839
and there was actually a copy of

978
00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:18,000
conscious mind in the library

979
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:20,160
which i wouldn't have known i found

980
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:22,000
books by charlie tart in the library

981
00:36:25,829 --> 00:36:23,760
again wouldn't have known

982
00:36:28,230 --> 00:36:25,839
that that was where i should have been

983
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:28,240
looking and and once i started making

984
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:29,599
inroads into that

985
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:32,400
and reading about everything then i

986
00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:33,359
found out about the

987
00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:35,119
you know the personal logical

988
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:36,960
association which i joined as a student

989
00:36:40,950 --> 00:36:38,800
member and that's where i got connected

990
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:40,960
to bill role

991
00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:44,720
and so you know i had

992
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:46,960
a long well it seemed like a long

993
00:36:49,109 --> 00:36:48,720
correspondence i mean it really wasn't

994
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:49,119
in the

995
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:51,599
you know he didn't he didn't live many

996
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:53,200
years after i first

997
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:56,640
worked with him unfortunately um

998
00:37:01,510 --> 00:36:59,680
but you know he he had invited me out to

999
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:01,520
laurentian university which

1000
00:37:04,630 --> 00:37:03,200
isn't actually that far from where i

1001
00:37:07,510 --> 00:37:04,640
live so

1002
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:07,520
it's like a five-hour bus ride if the

1003
00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:08,000
bus goes

1004
00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:13,829
but but what was his relationship with

1005
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:15,760
uh persinger was he were they

1006
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:18,720
colleagues or did they know each other

1007
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:20,560
they were such good friends

1008
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:23,200
um i mean they didn't they you know

1009
00:37:27,829 --> 00:37:24,720
perseger was at laurentian

1010
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,839
and bill was i think was it university

1011
00:37:32,470 --> 00:37:28,880
of west georgia

1012
00:37:35,430 --> 00:37:32,480
i think um but they had written

1013
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:35,440
a lot of works together and seeing them

1014
00:37:39,270 --> 00:37:36,000
together

1015
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:39,280
like they i mean they were such opposite

1016
00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:40,400
people

1017
00:37:45,349 --> 00:37:44,079
personer's very has a university

1018
00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:45,359
professor i probably would have called

1019
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:46,400
him like a hard ass

1020
00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:49,839
you know you know i mean he was he was

1021
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:51,280
very

1022
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:55,440
much into the data and and

1023
00:37:59,910 --> 00:37:57,520
didn't have a lot of time for small talk

1024
00:38:04,150 --> 00:37:59,920
whereas bill was a people person

1025
00:38:05,829 --> 00:38:04,160
i mean you know you could see

1026
00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:05,839
why they kind of worked well together

1027
00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:07,920
because bill looked after all the nicest

1028
00:38:12,069 --> 00:38:11,040
niceties of life and prisoner got the

1029
00:38:14,069 --> 00:38:12,079
data

1030
00:38:15,990 --> 00:38:14,079
but when they were together they joked

1031
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:16,000
and and

1032
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:20,320
was just a really nice

1033
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:22,800
relationship between the two of them and

1034
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,069
uh those were actually a person in

1035
00:38:32,230 --> 00:38:30,480
particular a lot of parapsycho

1036
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:32,240
parapsychologist told me oh stay away

1037
00:38:37,270 --> 00:38:34,880
from him like he's a bad guy and

1038
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:37,280
you know and and he's often the one

1039
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:37,920
that's

1040
00:38:41,750 --> 00:38:40,400
everyone says oh well you know he has a

1041
00:38:44,230 --> 00:38:41,760
history with

1042
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:44,240
with the dark side of the government and

1043
00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:44,800
yet when

1044
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:47,280
all these people telling me this all

1045
00:38:51,190 --> 00:38:48,480
came from the government

1046
00:38:51,990 --> 00:38:51,200
paul worked for the cia in various ways

1047
00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:52,000
like you know

1048
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:54,240
like like nobody is innocent in this

1049
00:39:01,510 --> 00:39:00,150
and i think a lot of those peop no

1050
00:39:02,150 --> 00:39:01,520
that's that's hilarious i think that's

1051
00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:02,160
so true

1052
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:05,040
and the other reality of it is a lot of

1053
00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:06,320
these people don't know

1054
00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:07,520
you know you don't know where your

1055
00:39:11,910 --> 00:39:10,320
funding came from necessarily

1056
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:11,920
and in particular in these fields the

1057
00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:14,000
funding is so tiny you know i mean like

1058
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:14,560
you might

1059
00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:16,800
bother to look in if you're getting

1060
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:18,960
gazillions of dollars or even millions

1061
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:20,400
of dollars but when you're just getting

1062
00:39:23,349 --> 00:39:22,240
a little bit to get you further along

1063
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:23,359
you're just like hey

1064
00:39:28,069 --> 00:39:26,240
take it and move on and it isn't clear

1065
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:28,079
you know where it's coming from i think

1066
00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:30,079
in a lot of cases well in person you're

1067
00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:33,040
funded most of his own work

1068
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:35,440
like it's all just part of a process

1069
00:39:38,390 --> 00:39:36,880
it's like i get a little bit here or

1070
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:38,400
there it's like yeah it's like

1071
00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:39,760
i still have to go out and get all of it

1072
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:42,000
my get a lot of it myself right

1073
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:45,280
well he i think there was one because

1074
00:39:50,950 --> 00:39:48,480
i i mean he was pretty open with me when

1075
00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:50,960
i asked because i asked

1076
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:52,560
you know where the funding and things

1077
00:39:58,230 --> 00:39:55,680
came from and uh

1078
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:58,240
most uh you know he he had done some

1079
00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:00,240
project for the us navy it was a very

1080
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:01,200
small thing he

1081
00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:04,560
he pointed out what that was

1082
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:07,440
but the overwhelming majority of the

1083
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:07,920
work

1084
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:10,480
done at uh laurentian university he

1085
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:13,040
funded out of pocket

1086
00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:18,230
you know that's i mean i guess some

1087
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:20,240
people oh actually a lot of people paid

1088
00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:20,960
their own way

1089
00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:23,359
to go there to see his lab and be tested

1090
00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:24,480
in his lab

1091
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:28,079
because yeah um

1092
00:40:31,349 --> 00:40:29,920
you know i remind people remind people

1093
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:31,359
so we don't get too far into

1094
00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:34,560
inside baseball so break down the the

1095
00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:36,000
work that you did

1096
00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:38,079
in these different labs or just what you

1097
00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:39,680
knew about these labs and what they were

1098
00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:40,400
doing

1099
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:42,800
and how it related to your experience

1100
00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:44,319
because this does kind of go back

1101
00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:45,920
to what i was saying before surely i

1102
00:40:51,349 --> 00:40:48,560
mean you know we can't really wrap our

1103
00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:51,359
heads around the fact that

1104
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:54,800
like just to say your experience

1105
00:40:58,870 --> 00:40:58,079
your uh you are an experiencer is not

1106
00:41:01,589 --> 00:40:58,880
enough

1107
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:01,599
it's kind of this strange situation

1108
00:41:04,630 --> 00:41:03,359
because when you're talking to these

1109
00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:04,640
researchers

1110
00:41:07,990 --> 00:41:07,520
you know so much freaking more than they

1111
00:41:11,349 --> 00:41:08,000
do

1112
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:11,359
that it's like insane and yet

1113
00:41:15,349 --> 00:41:13,520
you have to kind of take this role of

1114
00:41:17,990 --> 00:41:15,359
yes what do you want me to do

1115
00:41:21,109 --> 00:41:18,000
now you know what do you mean so it is

1116
00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:21,119
kind of the strange situation

1117
00:41:25,589 --> 00:41:24,000
so if you could be a little more bold in

1118
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:25,599
terms of what do you think these guys

1119
00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:26,880
and they're all guys

1120
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:28,160
what do you think they were doing what

1121
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:29,440
do you think they were doing right what

1122
00:41:33,670 --> 00:41:30,880
do you think they were doing

1123
00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:33,680
not so right where do you think all that

1124
00:41:37,430 --> 00:41:34,240
stuff is

1125
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:37,440
has gone you know since you were i guess

1126
00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:38,000
you still

1127
00:41:40,630 --> 00:41:39,359
are kind of keeping your fingers on it

1128
00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:40,640
but where do you think all that stuff is

1129
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:42,079
going and

1130
00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:44,880
all that wow okay that's a big question

1131
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:45,680
um

1132
00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:49,680
i would say persinger's lab

1133
00:41:53,829 --> 00:41:51,839
they hooked me up to an eeg and they

1134
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:53,839
were actually trying to prove

1135
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:56,160
um or sorry you don't prove things in

1136
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:57,920
science that's like a math and alcohol

1137
00:42:01,750 --> 00:41:59,760
thing sorry

1138
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:01,760
um but they were trying to provide

1139
00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:02,800
evidence

1140
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:07,520
um for a theory that bill roell had had

1141
00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:10,079
um part of which was that he he thought

1142
00:42:14,829 --> 00:42:11,200
that people who

1143
00:42:17,589 --> 00:42:14,839
were likely to have psychokinetic

1144
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:17,599
experiences would likely be people who

1145
00:42:20,630 --> 00:42:18,240
are very

1146
00:42:23,030 --> 00:42:20,640
environmentally sensitive to

1147
00:42:25,030 --> 00:42:23,040
electromagnetic frequencies

1148
00:42:28,069 --> 00:42:25,040
so one of the experiments they did was

1149
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:28,079
they put me into

1150
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:31,359
like a faraday cage so a closed-up room

1151
00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:33,040
it looks like a bank falls

1152
00:42:36,550 --> 00:42:34,560
it's like a bank vault with shag

1153
00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:36,560
carpeting on the floor and

1154
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:38,800
and and chairs from you know your

1155
00:42:44,069 --> 00:42:40,800
grandma's basement kind of thing

1156
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:44,079
um but her person by the way is famous

1157
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:46,240
for his faraday cage i mean there's like

1158
00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:48,079
uh yeah that's his thing

1159
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:51,680
yeah yeah yeah so you know so you're in

1160
00:42:56,390 --> 00:42:54,480
in the in the faraday cage and um they

1161
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:56,400
had this device in there

1162
00:43:00,309 --> 00:42:58,319
that once you're in the faraday cage

1163
00:43:00,790 --> 00:43:00,319
you're not affected by emf from outside

1164
00:43:03,109 --> 00:43:00,800
sources

1165
00:43:03,910 --> 00:43:03,119
so that's what a fair cage faraday cage

1166
00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:03,920
does

1167
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:05,920
so but once you're in there they turn on

1168
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:07,599
this device

1169
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:11,440
that that emits a

1170
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:15,119
specific amount of ems emacs or you make

1171
00:43:22,069 --> 00:43:18,800
electromagnetic energy

1172
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,079
and they see what it does to you and

1173
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:24,720
the the first time i did this experiment

1174
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:26,400
they didn't tell me what

1175
00:43:31,270 --> 00:43:29,520
to expect and and all they did

1176
00:43:33,030 --> 00:43:31,280
all they said was yeah a lot of students

1177
00:43:34,710 --> 00:43:33,040
we do this on students all the time most

1178
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:34,720
of them fall asleep in here

1179
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:37,200
so i'm like okay fine we'll do this so

1180
00:43:41,430 --> 00:43:38,240
i'm sitting in there

1181
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:41,440
and all of a sudden i was not feeling

1182
00:43:45,109 --> 00:43:42,079
well

1183
00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:45,119
and i was like you know i need this

1184
00:43:50,309 --> 00:43:47,520
needs to stop and apparently

1185
00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:50,319
um i was the most sensitive student they

1186
00:43:53,349 --> 00:43:51,280
ever had

1187
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:53,359
to do this experiment and i had to throw

1188
00:43:57,910 --> 00:43:55,280
up

1189
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:57,920
so it wasn't wasn't that fun for me like

1190
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:58,880
that was

1191
00:44:02,150 --> 00:44:00,400
they weren't expecting me to have quite

1192
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:02,160
such a violent reaction to it

1193
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:04,960
and then the next time because i i went

1194
00:44:09,030 --> 00:44:05,599
back

1195
00:44:10,950 --> 00:44:09,040
about a year later i think and

1196
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:10,960
did this again and they had rejigged it

1197
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:12,800
to be much more sensitive so they said

1198
00:44:15,109 --> 00:44:13,359
okay

1199
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:15,119
we're not going to blast you with this

1200
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:17,200
frequency we're just going to approach

1201
00:44:20,069 --> 00:44:18,960
it and just let us know when you don't

1202
00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:20,079
feel good

1203
00:44:24,790 --> 00:44:23,359
and so what i found was like one of the

1204
00:44:25,510 --> 00:44:24,800
things that they found with me is that i

1205
00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:25,520
see lights

1206
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:28,240
even in a dark room and i always have

1207
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:30,079
and so

1208
00:44:34,069 --> 00:44:32,000
i was telling them what color the lights

1209
00:44:35,829 --> 00:44:34,079
were turning in this completely dark

1210
00:44:37,589 --> 00:44:35,839
room

1211
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:37,599
at different times and they said it was

1212
00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:38,880
absolutely

1213
00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:41,920
um when they changed the frequency

1214
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:44,319
that i i had the colors match the

1215
00:44:49,910 --> 00:44:47,040
frequency they were turning it to

1216
00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:49,920
and which they weren't expecting to find

1217
00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:52,480
that that i'm so tuned into the

1218
00:44:56,230 --> 00:44:54,480
the subtle changes in the

1219
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:56,240
electromagnetics that i can tell them

1220
00:45:02,390 --> 00:44:56,800
what

1221
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:02,400
and even there when they were really

1222
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:04,079
careful i still ended up throwing up

1223
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:04,960
afterwards

1224
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:07,119
they they know exactly the frequency

1225
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,720
that sets it off and they say that

1226
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:10,640
that's the frequency that sets off the

1227
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:12,000
pk too

1228
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:16,960
so what what is your interpretation

1229
00:45:21,589 --> 00:45:19,440
of that result and what was their

1230
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:21,599
interpretation of that result

1231
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:24,720
um their interpretation well you can

1232
00:45:27,430 --> 00:45:25,119
read

1233
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:27,440
i mean there's written up in a paper so

1234
00:45:30,710 --> 00:45:29,280
it don't don't take my word for it

1235
00:45:35,109 --> 00:45:30,720
people can go find the paper

1236
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:35,119
it's i think role in role at al 2012

1237
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:38,880
um journal of neuro case

1238
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:42,880
i think yeah neuro case and but

1239
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:46,560
their their interpretation was that yes

1240
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:48,560
people who

1241
00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:51,839
have unusual experiences are sensitive

1242
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:53,680
to particular

1243
00:46:00,390 --> 00:45:57,280
um frequencies and and

1244
00:46:03,829 --> 00:46:00,400
and i i would kind of agree with them

1245
00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:03,839
because i sure got sick um

1246
00:46:08,950 --> 00:46:07,040
and i think what i liked about that was

1247
00:46:12,230 --> 00:46:08,960
the fact that

1248
00:46:14,069 --> 00:46:12,240
the colors of lights i were seeing it

1249
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:14,079
really it was kind of cool to find out

1250
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:15,839
that it actually corresponds to

1251
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:17,680
something that somebody can measure

1252
00:46:21,190 --> 00:46:19,839
outside of me that it's not just my

1253
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:21,200
imagination

1254
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:22,640
like i think that was the biggest

1255
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:24,800
takeaway from going to persinger's lab

1256
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:26,400
because i went there thinking

1257
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:27,680
that they were going to prove there was

1258
00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:30,240
nothing to this like that was

1259
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:32,880
at that time in my life i wanted a cure

1260
00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:33,440
for

1261
00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:35,200
what was going on with me i was studying

1262
00:46:38,230 --> 00:46:36,720
science and university

1263
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:38,240
and i wanted a cure and i was going to

1264
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:40,319
get fixed and they were just going to

1265
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:42,000
tell me that i was just nuts

1266
00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:44,160
and that that was going to be the end of

1267
00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:46,160
it and i would go back and be a good

1268
00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:47,200
scientist and

1269
00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:49,599
not ever look at this stuff ever again

1270
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:51,680
and of course that's not what happened

1271
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:55,520
really so i gotta i gotta poke here a

1272
00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:56,480
little bit

1273
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,720
i mean i can understand that at one

1274
00:47:01,910 --> 00:47:00,240
level you wanted that

1275
00:47:04,470 --> 00:47:01,920
but at another level you were an

1276
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:04,480
experiencer of this larger reality

1277
00:47:09,190 --> 00:47:06,960
so you had to know that that wasn't

1278
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:09,200
really

1279
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:19,349
yeah but you know i was pretty stubborn

1280
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:21,440
about it i was gonna fix it

1281
00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:23,520
i was being so stubborn and of course

1282
00:47:28,470 --> 00:47:24,640
that was making the

1283
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:28,480
pk worse

1284
00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:29,520
like you know it was making the

1285
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:31,359
poltergeist stuff worse because i was

1286
00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:32,960
getting so stubborn that i was gonna

1287
00:47:44,309 --> 00:47:43,750
and and that was that and it didn't

1288
00:47:47,670 --> 00:47:44,319
happen

1289
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:47,680
it just they just kept showing oh

1290
00:47:57,109 --> 00:47:55,430
yeah we just had a little we just had a

1291
00:47:57,390 --> 00:47:57,119
little glitch there but we had a little

1292
00:48:01,109 --> 00:47:57,400
glitch

1293
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:01,119
[Laughter]

1294
00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:04,079
stop it stop it okay that's enough of

1295
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:06,480
those games

1296
00:48:13,990 --> 00:48:12,230
you know what i find kind of interesting

1297
00:48:17,510 --> 00:48:14,000
about that is

1298
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:17,520
you're being so real about it and so

1299
00:48:24,150 --> 00:48:20,720
honest about it and

1300
00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:24,160
it mirrors in a way you know

1301
00:48:27,349 --> 00:48:25,920
persinger is known for being this

1302
00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:27,359
materialist so

1303
00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:29,920
he's encountering all this stuff and

1304
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:30,640
well it's i

1305
00:48:34,470 --> 00:48:32,559
it depends on how you read him you know

1306
00:48:37,270 --> 00:48:34,480
but i mean he's essentially jamming it

1307
00:48:39,510 --> 00:48:37,280
back into you know well let's just

1308
00:48:41,430 --> 00:48:39,520
find a different frequency then or let's

1309
00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:41,440
just you know like

1310
00:48:45,349 --> 00:48:43,839
explain all this away and well i'm going

1311
00:48:48,790 --> 00:48:45,359
to publish it nitrify

1312
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:48,800
you know kind of thing and it's like

1313
00:48:52,870 --> 00:48:50,640
i mean i i've that's been my kind of

1314
00:48:55,589 --> 00:48:52,880
thing for on this show

1315
00:48:57,270 --> 00:48:55,599
very i was very very very slow to come

1316
00:49:01,030 --> 00:48:57,280
to this realization but

1317
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:01,040
once i did it i i see the kind of tragic

1318
00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:04,000
comedy of it all is that all these guys

1319
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:05,280
at a higher level

1320
00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:07,359
understand the broader reality and

1321
00:49:10,309 --> 00:49:09,119
understand that this isn't the really

1322
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,319
the game to try and

1323
00:49:15,349 --> 00:49:12,480
jam it back into materialism and yet

1324
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:15,359
they let this stuff go on with just like

1325
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:17,520
you know i can only imagine this is my

1326
00:49:22,549 --> 00:49:19,040
imagination is

1327
00:49:25,109 --> 00:49:22,559
whoever is at that higher level

1328
00:49:26,309 --> 00:49:25,119
is reading persinger's work and going

1329
00:49:28,309 --> 00:49:26,319
great okay

1330
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:28,319
you know how can we weaponize it how can

1331
00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:30,079
we use it what does that mean

1332
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:32,000
and then they're letting it just go on

1333
00:49:37,309 --> 00:49:34,000
well let them keep talking about it like

1334
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:37,319
it's just all uh you know

1335
00:49:42,470 --> 00:49:40,480
materialistic biological robot and

1336
00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:42,480
this universe kind of world out there

1337
00:49:45,430 --> 00:49:43,760
you know

1338
00:49:47,589 --> 00:49:45,440
but it's interesting that you kind of

1339
00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:47,599
knew and you still didn't want to know

1340
00:49:50,710 --> 00:49:48,400
because it's

1341
00:49:51,910 --> 00:49:50,720
it's hard to know who the hell really

1342
00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:51,920
wants to

1343
00:49:55,109 --> 00:49:54,400
hold that reality i mean it's just kind

1344
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:55,119
of

1345
00:49:59,109 --> 00:49:58,480
tough yeah because it's just a lot

1346
00:50:02,950 --> 00:49:59,119
easier

1347
00:50:04,390 --> 00:50:02,960
not to go there um and i mean

1348
00:50:06,309 --> 00:50:04,400
you know my current husband is a

1349
00:50:08,069 --> 00:50:06,319
scientist and

1350
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:08,079
i tried to hide it from him for a long

1351
00:50:13,109 --> 00:50:11,040
time like you know

1352
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:13,119
that the one really good thing about

1353
00:50:16,950 --> 00:50:15,040
going to questions your lab

1354
00:50:19,349 --> 00:50:16,960
is that you know person juror gave me

1355
00:50:21,190 --> 00:50:19,359
all these data sheets to bring home

1356
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:21,200
and then i could just because i didn't

1357
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:23,200
even i don't think i even really told my

1358
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:24,640
husband exactly what

1359
00:50:29,349 --> 00:50:26,880
i was going to laurentian for he just

1360
00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:29,359
figured it was a geology thing because

1361
00:50:33,670 --> 00:50:31,520
you know i was in grad school and going

1362
00:50:34,150 --> 00:50:33,680
to another university that happens to be

1363
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:34,160
where

1364
00:50:40,710 --> 00:50:38,880
you know big mining town so um

1365
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:40,720
you know geologists heaven over there so

1366
00:50:45,349 --> 00:50:42,800
of course i'm going there like big deal

1367
00:50:47,349 --> 00:50:45,359
and that really wasn't what i was going

1368
00:50:50,470 --> 00:50:47,359
there for at all and i came home with

1369
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:50,480
these data sheets um showing

1370
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:53,520
you know the results from eegs we uh we

1371
00:50:56,150 --> 00:50:55,280
did some photo multiplier two

1372
00:50:58,390 --> 00:50:56,160
experiments

1373
00:51:00,150 --> 00:50:58,400
i mean you know various things that we

1374
00:51:02,950 --> 00:51:00,160
did and i showed him

1375
00:51:05,030 --> 00:51:02,960
the results and apparently how my brain

1376
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:05,040
is kind of weird

1377
00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:09,760
which is another thing they found and um

1378
00:51:14,230 --> 00:51:12,319
that was the first kind of conversations

1379
00:51:16,069 --> 00:51:14,240
i had with my husband over it

1380
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:16,079
i mean he always knew i was weird but he

1381
00:51:21,349 --> 00:51:17,920
always thought that was kind of a cute

1382
00:51:22,950 --> 00:51:21,359
cute thing anyway but i never really

1383
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:22,960
told him that i had a near-death

1384
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:23,920
experience

1385
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:25,920
i mean i never most near-death

1386
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:28,480
experiences don't tell their spouses

1387
00:51:32,950 --> 00:51:31,760
they just don't it's easier to tell a

1388
00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:32,960
complete stranger

1389
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:36,000
you

1390
00:51:39,990 --> 00:51:38,880
for talking about it that's not a big

1391
00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:40,000
deal

1392
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:42,400
you know but if your family rejects you

1393
00:51:47,349 --> 00:51:44,240
that's a big deal

1394
00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:47,359
um you know so that's why

1395
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:51,040
you'll go to an ions conference and

1396
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:52,800
everybody will be talking to each other

1397
00:51:56,230 --> 00:51:54,640
and every one of them will say yeah i

1398
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:56,240
don't tell my family they don't know

1399
00:52:00,549 --> 00:51:57,760
anything about this

1400
00:52:01,030 --> 00:52:00,559
you know i told them one time and i

1401
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:01,040
learned

1402
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:04,160
you don't you just go there

1403
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:06,960
yeah you know uh before uh time kind of

1404
00:52:12,309 --> 00:52:09,280
slips away from us too far i know people

1405
00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:12,319
are gonna be super interested in

1406
00:52:18,790 --> 00:52:15,520
the nuts and bolts of the pk stuff

1407
00:52:22,230 --> 00:52:18,800
um the little wheel thing

1408
00:52:25,030 --> 00:52:22,240
that you do and other people do

1409
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:25,040
uh what are the limits of pk do you

1410
00:52:29,750 --> 00:52:26,480
suppose

1411
00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:29,760
um how do you go about developing

1412
00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:32,000
that was that something you should do or

1413
00:52:36,549 --> 00:52:33,440
should not do

1414
00:52:39,589 --> 00:52:36,559
all the kind of basic pk

1415
00:52:40,069 --> 00:52:39,599
fascination questions you know it's

1416
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:40,079
funny

1417
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:43,599
i i find that seeing someone else

1418
00:52:49,030 --> 00:52:47,119
do pk seems to be contagious

1419
00:52:50,470 --> 00:52:49,040
like when i went to the rhine research

1420
00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:50,480
um center

1421
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:52,400
and i was doing you know spinning the

1422
00:52:56,710 --> 00:52:53,760
wheels

1423
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:56,720
and like other people were doing it

1424
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:57,599
there too

1425
00:53:02,470 --> 00:53:00,000
describe describe the setup describe the

1426
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:02,480
setup for people the best that you can

1427
00:53:06,630 --> 00:53:05,440
the what what the setup for the lab test

1428
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:06,640
is

1429
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:08,720
um well there's a lot of different lab

1430
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:11,359
tests actually um

1431
00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:12,960
because at the ryan they've got the

1432
00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:14,640
bioenergy lab which they did

1433
00:53:19,109 --> 00:53:16,720
similar experiments that laurentian did

1434
00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:19,119
in you know with a photo multiplier tube

1435
00:53:24,390 --> 00:53:20,720
so those experiments are

1436
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:24,400
pretty good and i you know anyone can

1437
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:26,000
can try those where you basically sit in

1438
00:53:28,150 --> 00:53:27,440
a dark room and you try and produce

1439
00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:28,160
light

1440
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:30,480
and and then they see if there's spikes

1441
00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:32,160
if you're glowing in the dark or not

1442
00:53:35,109 --> 00:53:33,680
which apparently i glow in the dark my

1443
00:53:38,549 --> 00:53:35,119
husband likes to brag about that

1444
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:38,559
it is why it flows in the dark um but

1445
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:42,160
but um other things was i just

1446
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:45,839
had a little jar and spun a pinwheel

1447
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:49,119
inside a closed jar and you know it's

1448
00:53:53,030 --> 00:53:51,200
not a perfect experiment and

1449
00:53:55,510 --> 00:53:53,040
later on i started working with an ugly

1450
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:55,520
wheel after dean raiden had suggested it

1451
00:54:01,030 --> 00:53:58,240
and put it inside a closed container as

1452
00:54:06,870 --> 00:54:04,390
but it was kind of interesting that that

1453
00:54:08,710 --> 00:54:06,880
what i find is that when people see it

1454
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:08,720
often they can do it

1455
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:10,640
although it'll kind of wear out like

1456
00:54:14,230 --> 00:54:12,240
there's almost this beginner's left way

1457
00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:14,240
it'll work for the first little bit

1458
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:16,319
and then it's like they convince

1459
00:54:20,870 --> 00:54:19,040
themselves they can't do it anymore

1460
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:20,880
but there's been other cases where there

1461
00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:23,440
was a fellow sean mcnamara

1462
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:26,160
who watched the video that i had done

1463
00:54:29,829 --> 00:54:28,400
for ions and there i show a little clip

1464
00:54:30,870 --> 00:54:29,839
of me playing with the pinwheel in the

1465
00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:30,880
jar just to

1466
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:34,079
to give an idea of it and he decided

1467
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:36,079
that he could figure out how to do this

1468
00:54:39,190 --> 00:54:37,680
and he started doing it

1469
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:39,200
and he actually teaches a course he

1470
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:40,960
wrote a book like he he did all the

1471
00:54:46,870 --> 00:54:43,760
things i should have done and

1472
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:46,880
but you know it's another a number of

1473
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:47,520
people

1474
00:54:51,109 --> 00:54:49,680
have sent me emails saying that they

1475
00:54:51,589 --> 00:54:51,119
thought it was silly and then they tried

1476
00:55:06,390 --> 00:54:51,599
it

1477
00:55:08,069 --> 00:55:06,400
but one of the things i thought was

1478
00:55:10,150 --> 00:55:08,079
interesting was a couple of people who

1479
00:55:12,789 --> 00:55:10,160
had learned how to do this

1480
00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:12,799
um and i gotten involved with this

1481
00:55:15,750 --> 00:55:13,680
researcher

1482
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:15,760
i'm not going to name him because i

1483
00:55:18,870 --> 00:55:17,520
don't i don't know that he wants to be

1484
00:55:23,109 --> 00:55:18,880
public about his

1485
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:23,119
interest in this topic but uh

1486
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:26,000
he had done done some some work where he

1487
00:55:30,230 --> 00:55:26,720
set up

1488
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:30,240
this machine that he said would be um

1489
00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:32,960
a way to isolate the effects in kind of

1490
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:34,960
a vacuum tube

1491
00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:37,280
and he did all these these things where

1492
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:39,040
he put the pinwheel in this closed

1493
00:55:44,789 --> 00:55:42,720
thing and then he had two of the people

1494
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:44,799
like shawn and another person in there

1495
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:46,640
and every time they got

1496
00:55:51,510 --> 00:55:48,720
the pinwheel to move in this setup he

1497
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:51,520
would blame it on

1498
00:55:54,950 --> 00:55:53,839
whatever like oh the the equipment was

1499
00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:54,960
malfunctioning

1500
00:55:59,750 --> 00:55:56,960
it's too hot in here it's too cold in

1501
00:56:01,829 --> 00:55:59,760
here like he had this laundry list

1502
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:01,839
and the two people who actually gone to

1503
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:03,440
his lab to do these things were very

1504
00:56:07,670 --> 00:56:05,280
discouraged because he basically made

1505
00:56:09,670 --> 00:56:07,680
them feel like they were complete frauds

1506
00:56:11,589 --> 00:56:09,680
because his equipment was it was just

1507
00:56:12,549 --> 00:56:11,599
equipment malfunctions there was no true

1508
00:56:14,789 --> 00:56:12,559
effects

1509
00:56:16,069 --> 00:56:14,799
so when he contacted me and asked me to

1510
00:56:17,829 --> 00:56:16,079
do it i said well

1511
00:56:19,589 --> 00:56:17,839
i'm not going to go to your lab we're

1512
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:19,599
going to do this over skype

1513
00:56:23,270 --> 00:56:21,200
because i don't want to go to your lab

1514
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:23,280
and and and my i mean first of all i get

1515
00:56:27,750 --> 00:56:24,880
air sick so i hate to fly

1516
00:56:29,510 --> 00:56:27,760
but i also figured like there's no point

1517
00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:29,520
me going there for you to say it's an

1518
00:56:33,430 --> 00:56:30,000
equipment

1519
00:56:34,549 --> 00:56:33,440
malfunction and so i said we'll just do

1520
00:56:38,230 --> 00:56:34,559
it over skype so

1521
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:38,240
set it up and we'll see what happens

1522
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:41,839
so we did this and several times

1523
00:56:46,950 --> 00:56:45,359
with me in canada and him in the states

1524
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:46,960
so we're not even in the same country

1525
00:56:49,030 --> 00:56:48,640
we're not even on this you know the same

1526
00:56:51,990 --> 00:56:49,040
part

1527
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:52,000
of the continent and the things started

1528
00:56:56,309 --> 00:56:54,640
moving like crazy in a few of the videos

1529
00:56:58,309 --> 00:56:56,319
and of course every time it's oh it's

1530
00:57:00,069 --> 00:56:58,319
equipment malfunction is this and that

1531
00:57:01,990 --> 00:57:00,079
so it's like yeah so no matter how

1532
00:57:03,670 --> 00:57:02,000
perfect some of the scientists set up

1533
00:57:05,589 --> 00:57:03,680
their experiments

1534
00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:05,599
when it moves they still say that so i'm

1535
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:07,680
just as happy that i wasn't there for it

1536
00:57:10,870 --> 00:57:09,440
to be an equipment malfunction

1537
00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:10,880
because quite honestly he could have

1538
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:13,200
also said it was fraud on my part

1539
00:57:20,549 --> 00:57:19,190
because i've had that happen too where

1540
00:57:22,069 --> 00:57:20,559
they say well if it moves then it's

1541
00:57:25,349 --> 00:57:22,079
fraud it's like well if i'm not in the

1542
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:25,359
room it's not me doing the fraud

1543
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:27,680
yeah in a way you kind of stumbled into

1544
00:57:32,230 --> 00:57:28,960
kind of the perfect

1545
00:57:33,030 --> 00:57:32,240
setup there so uh where are you going

1546
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:33,040
with this

1547
00:57:36,789 --> 00:57:35,280
in the future and what are the personal

1548
00:57:38,789 --> 00:57:36,799
kind of

1549
00:57:40,069 --> 00:57:38,799
implications for you or where would you

1550
00:57:41,270 --> 00:57:40,079
like to go and

1551
00:57:42,270 --> 00:57:41,280
you know i'm glad that you did this

1552
00:57:43,510 --> 00:57:42,280
interview i think you were

1553
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:43,520
understandably

1554
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:46,160
for a long time kind of cautious and

1555
00:57:48,390 --> 00:57:47,760
even going out there and talking about

1556
00:57:51,190 --> 00:57:48,400
this stuff

1557
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:51,200
because it can get kind of creepy where

1558
00:57:55,510 --> 00:57:53,040
do you want to go with this

1559
00:57:56,950 --> 00:57:55,520
um well i don't know i mean i've been to

1560
00:58:01,030 --> 00:57:56,960
quite a number of labs

1561
00:58:02,549 --> 00:58:01,040
um i have a number of people i know who

1562
00:58:04,549 --> 00:58:02,559
are working on

1563
00:58:05,829 --> 00:58:04,559
experiments that there's one fellow that

1564
00:58:07,750 --> 00:58:05,839
actually may come up with a good

1565
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:07,760
experiment it's just

1566
00:58:14,230 --> 00:58:12,240
the technical um setup

1567
00:58:16,470 --> 00:58:14,240
he won't mind i if i say his name is ron

1568
00:58:18,470 --> 00:58:16,480
bryan he's at texas a m and they're

1569
00:58:20,549 --> 00:58:18,480
working on an experiment

1570
00:58:22,870 --> 00:58:20,559
where they're hoping someone can use pk

1571
00:58:25,109 --> 00:58:22,880
to switch the direction of the spin on a

1572
00:58:28,950 --> 00:58:25,119
magnesium ion

1573
00:58:30,870 --> 00:58:28,960
um which i know you're going to say yeah

1574
00:58:34,309 --> 00:58:30,880
there's all kinds of evil

1575
00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:34,319
evil uses for a thought switch

1576
00:58:38,549 --> 00:58:36,640
but he's hoping it'll be used in medical

1577
00:58:40,390 --> 00:58:38,559
technologies

1578
00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:40,400
but you're right i'm you know any

1579
00:58:43,109 --> 00:58:41,760
anything where there's a good use

1580
00:58:46,630 --> 00:58:43,119
there's bad news

1581
00:58:48,870 --> 00:58:46,640
um you know and and there are

1582
00:58:50,470 --> 00:58:48,880
and there are some good experiments out

1583
00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:50,480
there and i've been really fortunate

1584
00:58:53,829 --> 00:58:52,160
that people have

1585
00:58:55,349 --> 00:58:53,839
have you know brought me to their labs

1586
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:55,359
and allowed me to participate in these

1587
00:58:59,190 --> 00:58:56,000
things but

1588
00:59:02,150 --> 00:58:59,200
generally what i found is that

1589
00:59:03,750 --> 00:59:02,160
they'll only go so far and it's like

1590
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:03,760
when they get really good experiments

1591
00:59:06,390 --> 00:59:04,640
they back off

1592
00:59:07,990 --> 00:59:06,400
and and it's like oh we don't ever want

1593
00:59:11,270 --> 00:59:08,000
to look at this again and

1594
00:59:13,190 --> 00:59:11,280
and it's almost a universal reaction

1595
00:59:14,710 --> 00:59:13,200
and i don't know why that is it's like

1596
00:59:16,549 --> 00:59:14,720
the experimenter

1597
00:59:18,150 --> 00:59:16,559
that i just talked about where he was

1598
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:18,160
really enthusiastic

1599
00:59:21,670 --> 00:59:19,520
that you know he was going to win the

1600
00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:21,680
nobel prize by proving this stuff was

1601
00:59:24,230 --> 00:59:22,240
real

1602
00:59:25,750 --> 00:59:24,240
he actually used that he actually said

1603
00:59:31,030 --> 00:59:25,760
that nobel prize

1604
00:59:32,789 --> 00:59:31,040
and yet when it came down to it

1605
00:59:34,630 --> 00:59:32,799
you know just from talking to him i knew

1606
00:59:36,630 --> 00:59:34,640
that no that's not where we're going and

1607
00:59:38,789 --> 00:59:36,640
that's why i'm not going to his lab i'm

1608
00:59:40,390 --> 00:59:38,799
going to do this over skype

1609
00:59:42,549 --> 00:59:40,400
and i'll get to see the little pinwheel

1610
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:42,559
move and yay and he's going to say well

1611
00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:43,920
that's not

1612
00:59:49,510 --> 00:59:47,520
anything and that's okay that's his deal

1613
00:59:55,510 --> 00:59:49,520
but at least at least i'm cleared of any

1614
00:59:59,030 --> 00:59:57,750
finally finally shirley do you have any

1615
01:00:02,390 --> 00:59:59,040
uh thoughts

1616
01:00:05,349 --> 01:00:02,400
on how pk does fit

1617
01:00:06,309 --> 01:00:05,359
into this larger kind of you know my pet

1618
01:00:09,430 --> 01:00:06,319
phrase

1619
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:09,440
extended consciousness realm you know

1620
01:00:12,710 --> 01:00:09,839
what

1621
01:00:15,109 --> 01:00:12,720
aspect of it are we looking at because

1622
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:15,119
to me when you talk about that it's like

1623
01:00:21,349 --> 01:00:18,240
bravo for the scientists on one hand

1624
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:21,359
on the other hand it's just so

1625
01:00:28,150 --> 01:00:24,960
impossibly corrupted and myoptic

1626
01:00:28,630 --> 01:00:28,160
and ridiculous that you know they're

1627
01:00:32,230 --> 01:00:28,640
just

1628
01:00:34,390 --> 01:00:32,240
looking they're looking in the dark

1629
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:34,400
alley because there's a street lamp over

1630
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:36,240
there and the keys are way

1631
01:00:39,910 --> 01:00:38,160
over in the field over here kind of

1632
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:39,920
thing but that's okay

1633
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:42,960
it's still somebody looking which is

1634
01:00:46,630 --> 01:00:45,599
more than we had before but any thoughts

1635
01:00:50,309 --> 01:00:46,640
for how

1636
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:50,319
how pk does fit into the bigger picture

1637
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:51,839
you know i think these are all very

1638
01:00:56,870 --> 01:00:53,680
personal journeys and

1639
01:01:00,789 --> 01:00:56,880
maybe maybe the scientist doesn't

1640
01:01:02,549 --> 01:01:00,799
need to see see the pk and maybe some do

1641
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:02,559
and i think you see it if you need to

1642
01:01:07,270 --> 01:01:05,760
see it um i think it's just

1643
01:01:09,589 --> 01:01:07,280
there's a lot more to us than we

1644
01:01:11,190 --> 01:01:09,599
realized and that's

1645
01:01:13,270 --> 01:01:11,200
that's kind of what you got to keep

1646
01:01:14,710 --> 01:01:13,280
looking for and the fact that there's

1647
01:01:17,829 --> 01:01:14,720
these puzzles

1648
01:01:20,710 --> 01:01:17,839
i what do they call it a colon

1649
01:01:21,510 --> 01:01:20,720
you know where where the whole point of

1650
01:01:24,470 --> 01:01:21,520
the riddle

1651
01:01:25,430 --> 01:01:24,480
is just to keep you kind of keep you

1652
01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:25,440
thinking

1653
01:01:30,549 --> 01:01:28,319
keep you searching because maybe the

1654
01:01:33,270 --> 01:01:30,559
process is more important than

1655
01:01:35,190 --> 01:01:33,280
than you know where the the journey is

1656
01:01:38,309 --> 01:01:35,200
more important than the destination

1657
01:01:39,829 --> 01:01:38,319
kind of thing um

1658
01:01:41,910 --> 01:01:39,839
you know i used to take it really

1659
01:01:43,990 --> 01:01:41,920
personally the fact that so many of the

1660
01:01:45,750 --> 01:01:44,000
scientists i've worked with

1661
01:01:47,510 --> 01:01:45,760
kind of they see a good result and then

1662
01:01:49,030 --> 01:01:47,520
they back off and i don't hear from

1663
01:01:50,470 --> 01:01:49,040
them again and i used to take that

1664
01:01:51,990 --> 01:01:50,480
really personally now i just kind of

1665
01:01:55,589 --> 01:01:52,000
think well that's where they need to

1666
01:01:56,390 --> 01:01:55,599
be and you know if somebody comes up

1667
01:01:58,390 --> 01:01:56,400
with a good

1668
01:01:59,829 --> 01:01:58,400
proposal and it's interesting and i'd

1669
01:02:02,230 --> 01:01:59,839
like to work on it yeah

1670
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:02,240
you know i'd i'd be up for that but if

1671
01:02:06,309 --> 01:02:03,599
not that's okay too

1672
01:02:07,670 --> 01:02:06,319
and you know we'll we'll see what

1673
01:02:10,069 --> 01:02:07,680
happens when it happens

1674
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:10,079
i mean it's either that or i could maybe

1675
01:02:15,670 --> 01:02:10,650
start a cult

1676
01:02:23,029 --> 01:02:18,230
two options say you got two good options

1677
01:02:26,950 --> 01:02:24,870
well i mean that's kind of that's kind

1678
01:02:30,390 --> 01:02:26,960
of isn't that what you know in the years

1679
01:02:34,390 --> 01:02:30,400
often do i you know i i mean i was kind

1680
01:02:36,309 --> 01:02:34,400
of shocked by that part of the whole

1681
01:02:37,829 --> 01:02:36,319
the whole community that yeah culture

1682
01:02:40,470 --> 01:02:37,839
thing

1683
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:40,480
yeah yeah yeah well tell you what it's

1684
01:02:44,710 --> 01:02:41,680
been absolutely

1685
01:02:46,950 --> 01:02:44,720
uh terrific i i really love

1686
01:02:48,230 --> 01:02:46,960
this and appreciate the conversation

1687
01:02:49,990 --> 01:02:48,240
we've had and i think we went to some

1688
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:50,000
places that you know i don't hear people

1689
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:52,720
talking too much about so it's really

1690
01:02:56,950 --> 01:02:55,760
really cool to have you on and i love

1691
01:02:58,549 --> 01:02:56,960
those

1692
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:58,559
i love where we came to at the end i

1693
01:03:02,150 --> 01:03:00,559
think that's

1694
01:03:03,670 --> 01:03:02,160
you know what immediately strikes me as

1695
01:03:06,789 --> 01:03:03,680
how could it be any other way

1696
01:03:09,829 --> 01:03:06,799
than that

1697
01:03:11,349 --> 01:03:09,839
so awesome

1698
01:03:13,990 --> 01:03:11,359
just give it a month and you might

1699
01:03:18,309 --> 01:03:14,000
change your mind yet

1700
01:03:19,829 --> 01:03:18,319
probably a couple more episodes

1701
01:03:21,750 --> 01:03:19,839
thanks again to shirley black for

1702
01:03:24,789 --> 01:03:21,760
joining me today on skeptico

1703
01:03:25,270 --> 01:03:24,799
i guess the one question i'd have on

1704
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:25,280
this

1705
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:28,960
is what do you think are the limits

1706
01:03:36,950 --> 01:03:33,599
of pk and of course my standard

1707
01:03:41,029 --> 01:03:36,960
what does the reality of pk

1708
01:03:44,069 --> 01:03:41,039
say about the extended consciousness

1709
01:03:47,270 --> 01:03:44,079
realm ah nice little easy

1710
01:03:47,829 --> 01:03:47,280
questions let me know your thoughts on

1711
01:03:50,230 --> 01:03:47,839
that

1712
01:03:51,589 --> 01:03:50,240
and uh please stay with me lots of good

1713
01:03:54,309 --> 01:03:51,599
stuff coming

1714
01:03:55,029 --> 01:03:54,319
down the pike i hope you stick around

1715
01:03:57,270 --> 01:03:55,039
for it

1716
01:03:59,150 --> 01:03:57,280
but until next time take care and bye